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	<title>Comments on: So Far, the Singularity Volunteer Fire Dept. Has Been Sounding Ten Alarms While Rushing Around Trying to Find Smoke</title>
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	<link>http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/2009/11/the-singularit/</link>
	<description>... a (mostly) good natured critique of World Handling Skills &#38; Tools</description>
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		<title>By: Alexander (M)</title>
		<link>http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/2009/11/the-singularit/comment-page-1/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander (M)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/?p=1623#comment-258</guid>
		<description>Has Mr. Lynch watched the movies he discusses? 

He writes, &quot;[The] film is as much about Ray Kurzweil as it is about the Singularity. In fact, much of the film is concerned with whether or not Kurzweil’s predictions stem from psychological pressures in his life.” [Oh, my! Oh, no! How many times have we seen a movement that influences the fate of millions turn out to be the personification of one man’s neuroses?!!]&quot; 

I have seen Transcendent Man... twice! At Tribeca and AFI. It was an absolutely amazing, beautiful, life changing event for me. I am still looking forward to the others. So I can not comment on them, but I will say that Transcendent Man very clearly and elegantly articulates Kurzweil&#039;s vision of the future while staying restrained and unbiased. I did not take away from it that Kurzweil&#039;s predictions stem from his personal psychosis. On the contrary I think the film maker Ptolemy was seeking to show that no man is an island and revealing that everyone has psychological issues to deal with. This never clouds Kurzweil&#039;s empirically based predictions. Like he says in the film he didn&#039;t discover the Singularity and work backwards, he continued looking forward based on the trends that he grew up with and discovered a future period which will undoubtedly be quite profound. I think Kurzweil deserves credit for being so open and transparent. After all he is working on helping people, informing people. He welcomes criticism, doesn&#039;t run from it. The truth (as subjective as that is) is a long distance runner. I believe these films (at least Ptolemy&#039;s) will vindicate Kurzweil in future years and decades.

AX


&lt;em&gt;____________

Dear Alexander,

futurists don&#039;t discover &quot;a future period that will be quite profound.&quot; And therein lies my main quibble with the many of Ray Kurzweil&#039;s admirers. 

Mr. Kurzweil hasn&#039;t discovered anything because you can&#039;t discover something that doesn&#039;t yet exist. A good futurist understands that the best she or he can do is describe interesting scenarios, which is why the most interesting futurists are nearly always accomplished writers of science fiction. 

Futurism outside of science fiction is a calling that requires a huge amount of delicacy and caution when making appeals and offering commentary to one&#039;s followers precisely because there is such a slippery slope separating the thought that something might happen (what good futurists spend time thinking about) and the belief that one has foreseen the future--that is, has &quot;discovered&quot; it. 

Mr. Kurzweil may be a good futurist, exercising all due digilence and staying free of any personal belief that he  has discovered the future. But if so, he&#039;s being done a profound disservice by many of his followers, who seem to have accepted that Kurzweil&#039;s vision of the future is predestined. This is why I&#039;ve suggested that he&#039;s in danger of creating more of an apocalyptic cult with his claims than a community of dispassionate observers and debaters of future possibilities.

Thanks for writing. I appreciate your courtesy and civil tone. 

Dudley&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has Mr. Lynch watched the movies he discusses? </p>
<p>He writes, &#8220;[The] film is as much about Ray Kurzweil as it is about the Singularity. In fact, much of the film is concerned with whether or not Kurzweil’s predictions stem from psychological pressures in his life.” [Oh, my! Oh, no! How many times have we seen a movement that influences the fate of millions turn out to be the personification of one man’s neuroses?!!]&#8221; </p>
<p>I have seen Transcendent Man&#8230; twice! At Tribeca and AFI. It was an absolutely amazing, beautiful, life changing event for me. I am still looking forward to the others. So I can not comment on them, but I will say that Transcendent Man very clearly and elegantly articulates Kurzweil&#8217;s vision of the future while staying restrained and unbiased. I did not take away from it that Kurzweil&#8217;s predictions stem from his personal psychosis. On the contrary I think the film maker Ptolemy was seeking to show that no man is an island and revealing that everyone has psychological issues to deal with. This never clouds Kurzweil&#8217;s empirically based predictions. Like he says in the film he didn&#8217;t discover the Singularity and work backwards, he continued looking forward based on the trends that he grew up with and discovered a future period which will undoubtedly be quite profound. I think Kurzweil deserves credit for being so open and transparent. After all he is working on helping people, informing people. He welcomes criticism, doesn&#8217;t run from it. The truth (as subjective as that is) is a long distance runner. I believe these films (at least Ptolemy&#8217;s) will vindicate Kurzweil in future years and decades.</p>
<p>AX</p>
<p><em>____________</p>
<p>Dear Alexander,</p>
<p>futurists don&#8217;t discover &#8220;a future period that will be quite profound.&#8221; And therein lies my main quibble with the many of Ray Kurzweil&#8217;s admirers. </p>
<p>Mr. Kurzweil hasn&#8217;t discovered anything because you can&#8217;t discover something that doesn&#8217;t yet exist. A good futurist understands that the best she or he can do is describe interesting scenarios, which is why the most interesting futurists are nearly always accomplished writers of science fiction. </p>
<p>Futurism outside of science fiction is a calling that requires a huge amount of delicacy and caution when making appeals and offering commentary to one&#8217;s followers precisely because there is such a slippery slope separating the thought that something might happen (what good futurists spend time thinking about) and the belief that one has foreseen the future&#8211;that is, has &#8220;discovered&#8221; it. </p>
<p>Mr. Kurzweil may be a good futurist, exercising all due digilence and staying free of any personal belief that he  has discovered the future. But if so, he&#8217;s being done a profound disservice by many of his followers, who seem to have accepted that Kurzweil&#8217;s vision of the future is predestined. This is why I&#8217;ve suggested that he&#8217;s in danger of creating more of an apocalyptic cult with his claims than a community of dispassionate observers and debaters of future possibilities.</p>
<p>Thanks for writing. I appreciate your courtesy and civil tone. </p>
<p>Dudley</em></p>
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		<title>By: Thinkologist: The Dudley Lynch Blog on Brain Change &#187; Blog Archive &#187; All of Us Are Like This 7-Year-Old Who Doesn&#8217;t Like His Story-Making to Be Interrupted</title>
		<link>http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/2009/11/the-singularit/comment-page-1/#comment-255</link>
		<dc:creator>Thinkologist: The Dudley Lynch Blog on Brain Change &#187; Blog Archive &#187; All of Us Are Like This 7-Year-Old Who Doesn&#8217;t Like His Story-Making to Be Interrupted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Dec 2009 00:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/?p=1623#comment-255</guid>
		<description>[...] of the Prime Dolphin and of the Deep See Change Dolphin. It is one of these stories that, if the audacious theories of The Singulatarians come to pass, is most likely going to be the leading candidate for implantation in the “mind” [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of the Prime Dolphin and of the Deep See Change Dolphin. It is one of these stories that, if the audacious theories of The Singulatarians come to pass, is most likely going to be the leading candidate for implantation in the “mind” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfgang Pilz</title>
		<link>http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/2009/11/the-singularit/comment-page-1/#comment-250</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfgang Pilz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 00:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/?p=1623#comment-250</guid>
		<description>Dear Mr. Lynch,

thank you very much for your article. Your description of the ominous singularity and its followers is spot on.
I&#039;ve been lurking about the more relevant outlets for information about the singularity for some time now and have been starting to doubt myself a little bit.  May my doubts about the singularity have been unfounded? Is it maybe just me who can&#039;t see the inevitable conclusion as clearly as them? Your article really helped me to answer those questions with a clear No!

Now I also understand a little better why I so often felt like running in circles when arguing with singularians. It&#039;s the feeling you get, when trying to argue with someone who has built himself an impenetrable ideological defense (Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses come to my mind).

Greetings,
Wolfgang</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Mr. Lynch,</p>
<p>thank you very much for your article. Your description of the ominous singularity and its followers is spot on.<br />
I&#8217;ve been lurking about the more relevant outlets for information about the singularity for some time now and have been starting to doubt myself a little bit.  May my doubts about the singularity have been unfounded? Is it maybe just me who can&#8217;t see the inevitable conclusion as clearly as them? Your article really helped me to answer those questions with a clear No!</p>
<p>Now I also understand a little better why I so often felt like running in circles when arguing with singularians. It&#8217;s the feeling you get, when trying to argue with someone who has built himself an impenetrable ideological defense (Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses come to my mind).</p>
<p>Greetings,<br />
Wolfgang</p>
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		<title>By: mungojelly</title>
		<link>http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/2009/11/the-singularit/comment-page-1/#comment-248</link>
		<dc:creator>mungojelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/?p=1623#comment-248</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure I understand your point.  As a Singularitarian, I find most of those people&#039;s ideas pretty silly too.  But we&#039;re dealing with a situation which is very difficult to grasp, so we do have to remain open to a wide variety of possibilities.  Regardless of anyone&#039;s spun yarn on what the consequences will be, we really are crashingly close to the really sharp part of the curve.  Machine intelligence is not just a theory but a daily reality now, look around you: It has been years since humans were toppled as chess champions, computers are now driving cars, and we have successfully simulated the first tiny slice of rat brain.  There are various theories as to how far that puts us from artificial general intelligence, but I see no rational reason to doubt that we are plummeting in that direction. 
 
The critical threshold is not human level intelligence.  That&#039;s a philosophically important transition, a threat to our ego, a deep transformation of our place in the world, but it is not at all the most important threshold.  The important point-- though it&#039;s hard to say just where it is-- is when AIs are smart enough to think constructively about the very problem of artificial intelligence itself.  It doesn&#039;t matter when they can talk or laugh or write poetry, it only matters when they are substantially helpful in producing the next, smarter generation of themselves.  That is when the feedback loop becomes much tighter, and something very new (though it&#039;s hard to say what) must very quickly emerge.


&lt;em&gt;
Dear Mungojelly,

I&#039;ve been getting e-mails about this post sent though generators of anonymous messages like fartsfromtheheart.com, so I&#039;m a bit suspicious of the motives (and opinions) of people who won&#039;t identify themselves. (In such cases, are we already dealing with miscued artificial intelligences?)

But your comments seem genuine and heartfelt and perhaps your mom and dad really did name you Mungojelly, in which case I&#039;m slightly chagrined at having mentioned the identification issue at all.

I thought my key point was not only are a lot of silly things being said by Singularitarians, the whole issue is in danger of becoming a religion or cult-like phenomenon at this early stage, probably directly as a result of our lack of dependable evidence on the subject. With respect, while I appreciate and while I learned from your cogent comments, I see signs of that emerging in even your brief observations. When we start taking of &quot;things&quot; like AIs as &quot;they,&quot; we&#039;ve already crossed a threshold in our minds that we aren&#039;t justified in crossing or well-informed enough at this point to cross. Currently, The Singularity is still science fiction, which goes directly back to the main point I thought I was making. That said, you&#039;re my kind of Singularitarian. Thanks for writing!

Dudley

&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure I understand your point.  As a Singularitarian, I find most of those people&#8217;s ideas pretty silly too.  But we&#8217;re dealing with a situation which is very difficult to grasp, so we do have to remain open to a wide variety of possibilities.  Regardless of anyone&#8217;s spun yarn on what the consequences will be, we really are crashingly close to the really sharp part of the curve.  Machine intelligence is not just a theory but a daily reality now, look around you: It has been years since humans were toppled as chess champions, computers are now driving cars, and we have successfully simulated the first tiny slice of rat brain.  There are various theories as to how far that puts us from artificial general intelligence, but I see no rational reason to doubt that we are plummeting in that direction. </p>
<p>The critical threshold is not human level intelligence.  That&#8217;s a philosophically important transition, a threat to our ego, a deep transformation of our place in the world, but it is not at all the most important threshold.  The important point&#8211; though it&#8217;s hard to say just where it is&#8211; is when AIs are smart enough to think constructively about the very problem of artificial intelligence itself.  It doesn&#8217;t matter when they can talk or laugh or write poetry, it only matters when they are substantially helpful in producing the next, smarter generation of themselves.  That is when the feedback loop becomes much tighter, and something very new (though it&#8217;s hard to say what) must very quickly emerge.</p>
<p><em><br />
Dear Mungojelly,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been getting e-mails about this post sent though generators of anonymous messages like fartsfromtheheart.com, so I&#8217;m a bit suspicious of the motives (and opinions) of people who won&#8217;t identify themselves. (In such cases, are we already dealing with miscued artificial intelligences?)</p>
<p>But your comments seem genuine and heartfelt and perhaps your mom and dad really did name you Mungojelly, in which case I&#8217;m slightly chagrined at having mentioned the identification issue at all.</p>
<p>I thought my key point was not only are a lot of silly things being said by Singularitarians, the whole issue is in danger of becoming a religion or cult-like phenomenon at this early stage, probably directly as a result of our lack of dependable evidence on the subject. With respect, while I appreciate and while I learned from your cogent comments, I see signs of that emerging in even your brief observations. When we start taking of &#8220;things&#8221; like AIs as &#8220;they,&#8221; we&#8217;ve already crossed a threshold in our minds that we aren&#8217;t justified in crossing or well-informed enough at this point to cross. Currently, The Singularity is still science fiction, which goes directly back to the main point I thought I was making. That said, you&#8217;re my kind of Singularitarian. Thanks for writing!</p>
<p>Dudley</p>
<p></em></p>
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		<title>By: Accelerating Future » On Gardner’s Multiple Intelligences</title>
		<link>http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/2009/11/the-singularit/comment-page-1/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>Accelerating Future » On Gardner’s Multiple Intelligences</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/?p=1623#comment-246</guid>
		<description>[...] somewhat of an aside, Mr. Lynch criticized my critique of Gardner&#8217;s theory of &#8220;multiple intelligences&#8221; as &#8220;irreverent&#8221;. This [...]


&lt;em&gt;Mr. Anissimov is correct in that &quot;irreverent&quot; was not a good word choice to attach to his views on Howard Gardner&#039;s views. Or more correctly, his views on Howard Gardner were not the right choice to illustrate Mr. Anissimov&#039;s tendency to be free-wheeling, free-swinging and occasionally irreverent in his commentaries. For example, he loves to call humans &quot;klutzes&quot; and &quot;apes&quot; and to downgrade humans&#039; views of the relative position of their brand of intelligence in the overall spectrum of universal intelligence (at least as Mr. Anissimov anticipates it). All of which makes him a really fun read. Don&#039;t miss &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.acceleratingfuture.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Michael Anissimov&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] somewhat of an aside, Mr. Lynch criticized my critique of Gardner&#8217;s theory of &#8220;multiple intelligences&#8221; as &#8220;irreverent&#8221;. This [...]</p>
<p><em>Mr. Anissimov is correct in that &#8220;irreverent&#8221; was not a good word choice to attach to his views on Howard Gardner&#8217;s views. Or more correctly, his views on Howard Gardner were not the right choice to illustrate Mr. Anissimov&#8217;s tendency to be free-wheeling, free-swinging and occasionally irreverent in his commentaries. For example, he loves to call humans &#8220;klutzes&#8221; and &#8220;apes&#8221; and to downgrade humans&#8217; views of the relative position of their brand of intelligence in the overall spectrum of universal intelligence (at least as Mr. Anissimov anticipates it). All of which makes him a really fun read. Don&#8217;t miss <a href="http://www.acceleratingfuture.com" rel="nofollow">Michael Anissimov</a>.</em></p>
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		<title>By: MIchael Anissimov</title>
		<link>http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/2009/11/the-singularit/comment-page-1/#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator>MIchael Anissimov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/?p=1623#comment-245</guid>
		<description>Hi Mr. Lynch.  I think part of the problem here is that you&#039;re primarily getting the surface activity and not enough of the underlying arguments, which are scientific, somewhat complicated, not referenced enough (they aren&#039;t soundbite-y), and even many people in the Singularity community are preoccupied with the surface elements.

For instance, why is it likely that true artificial intelligence could be created within the next few decades rather than hundreds of years?  Well, no one knows for sure, but even if the probability is 10%, it&#039;s worth paying attention to because the consequences could be so large.  Working from a utilitarian calculus, looking at the issue makes sense.

Why do we have reason to worry?  Because AIs might pursue &lt;a href=&quot;http://selfawaresystems.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/ai_drives_final.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;convergent subgoals&lt;/a&gt;, that, if pursued aggressively enough, destroy &lt;a&gt;human value&lt;a&gt;.  Why is human value fragile?  Because it&#039;s extremely complex and evolved piecemeal over millions of years, for one.  Why don&#039;t people realize this?  Because we all have similar values in the universal sense, and because of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2009/03/the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-truth-about-morality/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;moral realism&lt;/a&gt;.  So people will program advanced AI while thinking that the values part will take care of itself, because morality is intuitive to humans because we have oodles of complex neural hardware which makes us think so.  That neural hardware wouldn&#039;t create itself spontaneously in artificial intelligences.

There is a lot more, but it&#039;s somewhat time-consuming to get into.  I published a sort of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2009/11/dudley-lynch-on-the-singularity/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;response&quot;&lt;/a&gt; to your post here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mr. Lynch.  I think part of the problem here is that you&#8217;re primarily getting the surface activity and not enough of the underlying arguments, which are scientific, somewhat complicated, not referenced enough (they aren&#8217;t soundbite-y), and even many people in the Singularity community are preoccupied with the surface elements.</p>
<p>For instance, why is it likely that true artificial intelligence could be created within the next few decades rather than hundreds of years?  Well, no one knows for sure, but even if the probability is 10%, it&#8217;s worth paying attention to because the consequences could be so large.  Working from a utilitarian calculus, looking at the issue makes sense.</p>
<p>Why do we have reason to worry?  Because AIs might pursue <a href="http://selfawaresystems.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/ai_drives_final.pdf" rel="nofollow">convergent subgoals</a>, that, if pursued aggressively enough, destroy <a>human value</a><a>.  Why is human value fragile?  Because it&#8217;s extremely complex and evolved piecemeal over millions of years, for one.  Why don&#8217;t people realize this?  Because we all have similar values in the universal sense, and because of </a><a href="http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2009/03/the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-truth-about-morality/" rel="nofollow">moral realism</a>.  So people will program advanced AI while thinking that the values part will take care of itself, because morality is intuitive to humans because we have oodles of complex neural hardware which makes us think so.  That neural hardware wouldn&#8217;t create itself spontaneously in artificial intelligences.</p>
<p>There is a lot more, but it&#8217;s somewhat time-consuming to get into.  I published a sort of <a href="http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2009/11/dudley-lynch-on-the-singularity/" rel="nofollow">&#8220;response&#8221;</a> to your post here.</p>
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		<title>By: Accelerating Future &#187; Dudley Lynch on the Singularity</title>
		<link>http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/2009/11/the-singularit/comment-page-1/#comment-244</link>
		<dc:creator>Accelerating Future &#187; Dudley Lynch on the Singularity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brainmeup.com/blog/?p=1623#comment-244</guid>
		<description>[...] being said and written about The Singularity at the moment&#8221;, has written up an article on the Singularity. Conclusion: it&#8217;s mostly a bunch of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] being said and written about The Singularity at the moment&#8221;, has written up an article on the Singularity. Conclusion: it&#8217;s mostly a bunch of [...]</p>
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